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Friederich inspired.
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10130&t=35014		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Friederich inspired.
Hi everyone!

This is my first Doc-U-build. I'm publishing it 'cause I find this one particularly special.

Here the context: I'm studying in a guitar making school. It is a 3 year program wich includes conception, building and repair courses, as well as technical drawing, acoustic, theorical and historical courses. I'm there at my final semester. The final project is called ''Traditional Guitar''. We have to take a reknown ''historical'' luthier, and make a guitar in the way of this luthier. We have to respect the aesthetics, the thoughts, the spirit of this luthier, and, obviously, his shape/plan. This sould be a nylon string guitar.

Across my colleagues, some chose Romanillos, Hernandez, Bouchet, Bogdanovitch, Kasha, Reyes and De Younge. I chose myself Friederich.

After a lot of research and planning, the build go on.
My background before beginning this build: 1 electric bass, 1 soprano uke, 1 classical guitar, 1 almost finished OM, 1 unfinished electric guitar.

Let's hope you'll keep an eye on my work!
Francis
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Here are the specs:

Top: Redwood
Back: Cocobolo
Sides laminates: Cocoblo and Cedro
Neck: Mahogany
Fingerboard: Ebony
Headplate: Ebony
Bridge: Brazilian rosewood
Bindings: Cocobolo or Ebony, not decided
Top braces: Western Red Cedar
Back braces: Cedro
Kerfings: Reversed Cedro on back, standard Basswood on top
Rosette: Tom Blackshear ''Friederich replica''

650mm scale
Laminated sides up to 3.5-4.0mm
Top dome almost at 4mm
Top braces based on Friederich actual works
4 back braces


Attachment:
plan.jpg

Attachment:
Plan de barrages table.jpg

Attachment:
redwood top.jpg

Attachment:
Bracestock.jpg

Attachment:
cocobolo .jpg

Attachment:
head.jpg

Attachment:
heel.jpg
Author:  Jim Watts [ Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Francis, I'm looking forward to following this build. The plan in your second photo is quite different from the one published in Courtnal's book. What's the history on that?
Author:  DennisK [ Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Looks like some fine woods you've got there. Love redwood tops.

The brace pattern is interesting. How tall are all those cross braces in the fan/lattice? Bet they'll make a pretty big difference in the sound compared to regular fan bracing.

I'll be watching the build!
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
The plan is actual one of the three different patterns Friederich uses today (or in the past years, maybe he changed again). I can't say the plan is 100% the same, I can't say 90 or 80 neither: I don't know.

My sources are pictures from a braced top from a guy who build exclusively Friederich replicas. He had in his possession many authentic Friederich, and made X-rays on one or some of these. I did not had all the measurements from him... but I got a picture and SOME measurements from the x-ray. I forgot to mention that the guy took a trip to Paris once or twice to visit the luthier.

Also, last year, a colleague of mine made a phonecall to Friederich and had some informations from him directly. I wanted to do it myself, but as far as I am, I have enough informations... maybe i'll call him later... I'm kind of shy.

Plus, I found many pictures of friederich copies on the internet. I don't rely on these as good reference... But I can compare it whit what I have, and see if it fits.

The courtnall plan is the first pattern Friederich used after he dropped the traditional fan bracing. I have no good evidences to prove it... but I suspect the this plan is correct. I would call it a ''Friederich style'' guitar.

DennisK wrote:
How tall are all those cross braces in the fan/lattice?!

Unfortunately, these are measurements that are missing to me.
Here's all I can say:

-He don't always use the crossbar that is between the bridge and the soundhole. He uses it for a certain type of player (certain type of sound), or for tops that are more flexible laterally. I know he tests the deflexion, but dont know the measurements he looks for... I decided to do one, and make it around 5x5 or 6x6.

-He sometimes ''scalops'' the bridge brace between the fans... I guess this is when he finds the top too stiff or too heavy. I don't have the measurements for this brace... I did mine 6x6, if I remember correctly.

-The bracing is not always assymetrical. Sometimes, the first fan is like the seventh, both are going over the brace and end in the soundhole reinforcement.



What more can I say...?

-The soundhole ''donut'' is usually 1.7mm aviation plywood.
-The upper bout transverse is 22mm high... yes.
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Ho... he switched the bridge brace at the REAR of the bridge. After years, he found that the deformations were behind and not ahead of the bridge. He then also move the two little cross braces in front of the bridge instead of behind, and change them by wider ones but way more low (bit more than 1mm).
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Some more work before the weekend...

Finished to carve the dome in the solera
Finished my side laminator
Planed and joined the back
Planed the sides
Made deflection tests on top and back
Recieved the Blackshear rosette

Attachment:
Dome routing.jpg

Attachment:
dome scraping.jpg

Attachment:
dome checking.jpg

Attachment:
Side laminator.jpg

Attachment:
Planed back.jpg

Attachment:
sides.jpg

Attachment:
taking data.jpg

Attachment:
Rosette.jpg
Author:  Florentin [ Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Great photos to look at.
I like how you are gradually cutting away at your neck :O)

Thanks for sharing the progress.
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Florentin wrote:
Great photos to look at.
I like how you are gradually cutting away at your neck :O)

Thanks for sharing the progress.


I carve the heel and the headstock about 95% before glueing ribs and top onto/into it. Leaving the neck shaft square is great for gluing the fingerboard on. Then, the last carving step before the instrument is finished is the neck shaft.
Author:  Steve_E [ Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Beautiful Rosette.

Did you make it, or buy it? If you bought it, where?

Steve
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
The rosette is stunning.

I didn't make it; I'm not sure I'll someday have the patience to do that. It's ordered from Tom Blackshear.
Attachment:
rosette inlayed.jpg
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Did a little more work last 2 days.

-Final thicknessed the top, ribs and back
-Split and dimensionned the braces, also radius them to the compound dome

Top ended at 2.5-2.6 before finish sanding. Friedrich goes down to 2.1-2.2, but mine was pretty flexible along the grain, and I'm not as experienced as this ol guy. The top was REALLY lightweight... it weights now about 100grams without braces.

The outer ribs ended at 1.8mm, there will be a 2mm cedro inner side.
The back will end at 1.9 on edges and around 2.0-2.1 at center, that will give a bit under 300grams. Friederich weight his back instead of measuring the thickness of it. He's looking for 250 to 300 grams. With his chosen EIR, it comes out around 2.3mm.

Top braces are all WRC, exception of the large plate in the upper bout who is 2mm Adirondack and the 2 littles plate at the front cornors of the bridge who are 1.25mm Adi.

Attachment:
plates.jpg
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Some work done this week.. finished to brace the top!
This is not a simple bracing scheme. Because there is so many cross-over and coupling points between braces, I had to carefully establish a sequence to glue the braces. I also had to make a choice between shaping the fan braces round, and make the mortises in the transverse braces round, or leave the brace square, and carve them round after the transverse are glued. I did the 2nd way.

The top weights now, with all braces carved, 159 grams, that is pretty light, considering the number of bracings and the size of them.

I also did some Chaldni tests on it. I'm sorry that I have no pictures of other modes, but the camera weren't able to catch them well. The monopole is around 135, cross dipole around 220, there's a kind of tri-pole at 440... and from 700 to 1100, there were many complex but clear modes, divided in very small areas. And for these frequencies, also, the perimeter was full of vibration, just as the upper bout. The high frequencies really do travel on the perimeter. I'm really pleased by what I saw. Two of my friends tested their tops at the same time... a santos hernandez flamenco and a Kasha. They look almost dead in comparasion withthe Friederich.

I finally began to do the carving on the headstock, still some clean up and work to do.

Attachment:
shaping braces.jpg

Attachment:
bracing1.jpg

Attachment:
bracing2.jpg

Attachment:
Chladni.jpg

Attachment:
head carving.jpg
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Nice build so far. I really like your headstock with the raised edges! Thats very cool!
Author:  cphanna [ Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Yes, Francis, the carved headplate is a nice concept. I've never seen one like it. Your entire building process is very interesting.
Patrick
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Still some clean up to do but it looks good!
Attachment:
head2.jpg
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Here are the double sides, and the way I glued them!

First, there is the outside mold made of MDF. I put tape and plastic film on it to protect it.
Attachment:
mold.jpg

Attachment:
taped mold.jpg


Here are some clamps I made to fasten the operation.
Attachment:
clamps.jpg


And this is the inner part... it is flexible plywood, on wich I glued hard plywood bars to spill the clamping force.
Attachment:
flex plywood.jpg


And here is the action. Next time, I will integrate the clamp I made to the inner part. I realize that with the plywood bars that were already on the flexible part, I could not put the clamps I made everywhere. I used a combo of my clamps and regular F clamps this time.
Attachment:
lots of clamps.jpg


And here is the result
Attachment:
side.jpg

Attachment:
ribs.jpg

Attachment:
side detail.jpg


Thicknesses are around 2.0mm of spanish cedar and 1.9mm of cocobolo. Final thickness vary between 3.9 and 4.0mm. (~0.155''). That are HEAVY sides.
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Some more work...

The neck glued to the top.
Attachment:
neck.jpg


The end block glued to the top. Notice it is laminate. It is not a Friederich features, It's a personnal initiative. More ''not end grain'' glueing surface, and more stable to prevent both top or side cracking.
Attachment:
Laminate end block.jpg


Here's a method to hold the end block square to the top... a stick, clamp to the inner part of the heel and nailed to the end block.
Attachment:
block holding.jpg


The sides are glued in the neck, on the top, and on the end block at the same time. You need a glue with long open time (fish glue) and a good friend to help you! Notice the 4 future side braces.
Attachment:
sides.jpg


Made some chladni tests after the top has been rimed.... WOW. I've been really impressed...
Attachment:
Chladni.jpg


Here is the thickness of the back, after it came out of the thickness sander... not really even. So I finished by hand. Around 2.0mm and a bit less on the edges.
Attachment:
Back thickness.jpg

Attachment:
back sanding.jpg


And I'm preparing the back braces. These are 4. Friederich uses 3, but since mine is pretty thin, I wanted to decrease the risks of craking decreasing the distance between braces. I went thinner because Friederich thickness his back by weight... and since cocobolo is heavier than his usual EIR... His braces are 17mm high, mine will be 15.5mm since they are more populous. These are spanish cedar.
Attachment:
Back braces.jpg
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Here's a bit of more work done. It's going to be the last progression before at least 3 weeks. Due to the massive student stike going on in the province, the shop is closed at least until the next vote, in three weeks. I was just about to close the box when we've been evacuated. I just hope the RH will stay relatively stable during this period... we had problems with that lately.

Anyways, here are the pics.


Reverse kerfing made out of spanish cedar.
Attachment:
reverse kerfing.jpg


Back radius. 16' lateral arch. Longitudinal arch is done manually. Between 15' and 20'
Attachment:
back radius.jpg


Ready to receive the back.
Attachment:
box.jpg


Back braces (spanish cedar) are glued and carved. Sorry, didn't had time to take a shot of the final carved braces.
Attachment:
back braces.jpg
Author:  mqbernardo [ Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
very nice, inspiring work. hope all goes well during the 3 weeks absence...

cheers,
miguel.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Good stuff!

Any reason to leave the outer coco sides so thick if you're laminating anyway? I'm pondering doing some laminated sides (stiffen up the box a little, negate the need for side tapes or braces) on the next build, but I'd probably go with 1.3-1.5mm outer side, slightly thicker inner (mahogany or cedrella, which I have a lot of) and possibly even a veneer on the inside for aesthetic reasons.
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
I did this for some reasons...

First, Friederich does 2mm/2mm, for a total of 4mm. If I'd bring the coco down to 1.5mm et less, I would have to bent 2.5mm or more thick sides.

Second, the shopbuilt sander we have can't really go under 2mm.

Third, I wanted to keep some mass. A big part of Friederich guitars mechanic come from the weight. He looks for 1850g. My coco is heavier than Friederich' traditional EIR, but my spanish cedar was lighter than Friederich mahogany inner sides, so I think it balances.
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
The strike goes on and on... and it seems like the semester will be cancelled and reported to next year. I'm disgusted.
Author:  munen [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
very nice clean work, it looks to me like its going to be a good sounder.
looking foward to see more.
Bruno
Author:  Robert Renick [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friederich inspired.
Nice work, sorry for the strike messing up your work. I am curious on the side bracing, with a double side isn't that redundant? Did you prebend the sides before laminating?
Rob
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